The Power of the Doctor

[0:00]

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back for the last time to Jody Into Terror, the only Doctor Who flash cast that really doesn't mind a good goodbye.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Todd.

I'm James I'm Peter.

And I'm Simon.

Well, we're actually all here in the room together with champagne for our final episode.

This is something that started 100s of years ago now with us all phoning one another up a night or 2 after the Doctor Who episode aired.

And here we are, altogether, finally at last, to talk about the power of the doctor by Christopher H.

Chibnall.

So, um, I guess we're going to start and we're going to go round the table with the 1st question of the evening.

Do you think this worked?

Simon.

Absolutely not However, that doesn't mean that I didn't have a really good time watching it.

Yeah, okay.

That's fair enough, Peter.

[01:00]

I mean, I'm with Simon.

It was, it was possibly the best thing that Chipmull was ever written.

That shouldn't be confused with being actually good.

Um, I think it was kind of just in his wheelhouse of kind of um, nostalgia and useless mythology and frenetic action and somehow it all aligned.

It was quite enjoyable.

Yeah, yeah.

What about you, James?

I think it works in spite of the script.

Yeah, I found it a complete mess, but it was charming.

It had some lovely old actors that we love to see wheeled out occasionally.

Jody ain't that old.

She is by the end of it.

Yeah, like it was fun.

Yeah.

The dialogue wasn't not too much.

Yeah.

I'm going to disagree with that later.

Okay.

Todd.

I enjoyed it, you know, for a chibnal episode, I think he did rather well, but it's all that nostalgia stuff that really, for me, seals the deal.

Um, and um, the master stuff.

[02:02]

Yeah, that's, yeah, I enjoyed it.

But I think on repeated viewing, the plot or lack thereof may not hold up.

What about you, Brendan?

Yeah, I think the plot is pretty thin, but I think for that reason it does actually work.

Sort of, all the Chekhov's guns we're given in the 1st half hour are fired by the end of it, and I think possibly my favourite one is, why is the master Rasputin is answered with the question, because he wanted to dance to rah, rah, Rasputin in a really pretty palace.

Why not?

You know, it's actually just fun for the sake of being fun, which can be a bit of a rarity, this era.

Yeah, I think that's true.

Look, I thought that flux demonstrated that Chibnall was kind of at home with sort of blaring space nonsense.

And so Wildflux doesn't kind of hold together and doesn't really seem to kind of amount to something at the end of it.

There is a lot of noise and colour and vision and things on the way.

And I thought that was what this did quite well.

[03:04]

And like flux, occasionally good bits.

Yeah, I think that's true.

I think that's true.

I did look pretty amazing, I think.

I mean, you know, the train scene at the beginning has every sort of sign of just being a thing to use up running time, but...

Well, no, to create excitement.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also to give Dan a... that have space from in the plot.

Right, back Ace and Tegan.

But let's talk about Ace and Tegan.

How do we think they came off?

I mean, Sophie can still deliver.

Yeah, I think so too.

Um, yeah, I, look, Sophie's the highlight for me, I think like James, that's our era, you know, so we were always going to love seeing that.

I think Janet did perfectly well.

Once she was actually in the room with other people.

Like, I think her phone call at the beginning was pretty painful. was pretty painful.

But when she's bouncing off other people, and especially that scene, she's bouncing off Pete.

Yeah.

[04:04]

You know, that was that was lovely.

But even, even though she's not on Sophie's on the same level as Sophie, it's still funny when she's, oh, I think I handled that quite well.

Jason described it when we were watching it as she's your matronly old Australian aunt from Brisbane.

She's Auntie Vanessa.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Actually, my matronly old Australian aunt has just visited from Brisbane.

Actually, that bit where she says, yes, I would like to go into the TARDIS was so old school Bolshitigan, I enjoyed that.

Yeah, there were some nice old Tegan moments in it.

I just think having a 70 year old climbing down a lift shaft being shot by Cyberman is so great.

What other show is doing that?

How far does she...

She falls quite away.

See, I enjoyed her performance so much and I actually thought that Tegan ultimately was better served than Ace.

That's Ace had moments, but I really liked Tegan when she went back in with Kate and just the interaction with the master and that sort of thing.

[05:11]

I really got more out of Tegan than I did.

What I'm curious to know, though, is how a general viewer, especially a younger general viewer, would have taken it, because they are quite central to the plot, they get a lot of screen time, it's not just a few cute cameos.

Yeah.

Yeah, I was actually, you might not think this to look at me, but I actually went and saw my personal trainer this afternoon and he is a Doctor Who fan, but only of the new series.

Not much past Matt Smith.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So it was kind of like, what on earth?

Yeah, Matt, what are you going to make of this?

is going to be baffling.

We hadn't watched it when I saw him this morning.

No, I spoke to him this afternoon and he hadn't watched it, but he said he would watch it tonight.

He was prioritising House of the Dragon.

Yes, exactly right.

Prioritising working out with you.

This personal trainer.

He's not my personal trader, but he sees me at the gym and will say to me, when's Doctor Who coming back?

And I told him weeks ago and he has, okay, fine, fine.

[06:11]

No, really, Matt.

It's fine.

He does listen.

That's why I just addressed him.

You know, in fact, the funny thing was that all the people who watch Doctor Who, who I know watch Doctor Who at work, I went around like a good citizen and told them it was on and none of them had any idea.

Like, I think a lot of people had checked out, I think, by this point.

Well, it's been given no publicity here at all. true.

Yeah.

I mean, I really enjoyed, obviously, seeing Tegan and Ace back, but I had a strong case of the what ifs because I kept thinking that Tegan's role actually should have been Mel because Bonnie would have fixed that problem because she's a recognisable quantity to the British viewing public.

She's a current actress.

She would have been the kind of guest star that the series would aim to get now if she hadn't played Mel in the classic series.

And I just think seeing her and Sophie together and paired up would have been, you know, it would have been the sequel to Dragonfire that we always knew we never wanted. it might have given Colin something to do.

[07:18]

So Colin just gets to be shapeshifting, you know, guardian guy, but for me, the the doctors, the best bits with the old doctors were obviously Tegan and Pete.

And Sophie and Silv, although I have a massive problem with one of Silv's lines of dialogue, he's in favour of blowing things up, isn't he, Brendan?

Um, the thing is, the whole thing with him, an ace is he, he says he's not in favour of blowing things up, then tells her to go blow up beside, really, really.

Yeah, but it ties in with what he says about, you know, I wanted to teach you.

And that rankled me for a moment, and then I remembered, Chris Gibnall is writing this not for people who've read the new adventures because their makeup, like 2% of the audience.

He's writing it for the people who may have just bought the season 26 box set.

So who, what's the, like the Venn diagram's a circle?

I mean, what's the difference?

There's this whole thing with that where she's she's she's fallen out with him.

[08:23]

Don't see that in the series.

That is the due adventure.

Yeah, it's a little bit like the end of what, Love and War or something only less serious.

I thought that was good.

And I think that means that what we didn't know that and viewer at home didn't necessarily know that either.

And I thought that those 2 scenes were good.

But I think he made the decision to go with Tegan and Ace.

So you're going to have that, and unfortunately, that means that Colin's not going to have that moment.

But he was after David Bradley.

He was suddenly, okay, David Bradley was there and I thought, oh, okay, we're going to have that.

I went, oh.

And then he was the 1st one that appeared.

So sort of like, that was his sort of, oh, wow, we're going to do that sort of moment.

Did you know he would be in it, Tom?

No, not at all.

And I burst into tears.

I just kind of thought it was, um, it was justice for them after the 50th.

That's all I better say about that, you know?

But how do we think it comes off?

These quite elderly actors now.

[09:26]

But I just think, well, it's Chipno is a fan of our ilk, and it's for me, and, you know, that's just the way the way it is.

It's a celebration of the history of the show.

It's I mean, it's not supposed to be a...

Yeah, Russell's not going to do it.

No.

And Moffatt didn't do it. and he had the opportunity.

But I think Russell and Moffatt in a sense make the right decision.

That's true, but at least we get this.

I think that to me.

There's no overanalysing it.

You take it on face value.

It's enjoyable just to see our favourite doctors show up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also, having just said, Chipnell is not writing this for the people who've read the new adventures.

That's straight out of timeworm, the final timeworm book with the doctor encountering her past her past lights.

But I thought it was so beautifully.

I thought it was really beautifully well done, and I can't remember who it was now, but someone on Twitter said, it's interesting how Stephen Moffat said part of the reason he didn't bring back the most of the classic doctors for Day of the Doctor was it would be undignified to ask them to chuck on their old costumes just to do a couple of lines.

[10:39]

And yet Chibnall does it here.

And it's probably the most successful part of the episode, even if Silver's got his tank top tucked into his trousers, which only happened in time and the Rani, not when he was travelling with A. Wave it your hand wave it away. wave it away.

You know, oh, the interface is playing up.

You look old.

Yeah.

Yes.

Don't say that to Brendan.

Do, skin like an old Bible.

Anyway.

But I think I just think there's some really interesting things there.

Like, I mean, obviously we see Mel at the end and, you know, well, how did she get back to earth, you know, Big Finish can go and explore that.

And also the pairing of Ace with Graham.

You know, I actually thought, I thought from him, 0 my goodness, he's going to go down the road of, because they're basically the same age. that Graham is interested in her and that's how it came across to me and I'm thinking, well, there's going to be lots of fan stuff about that.

I think I said this in day of the doctor.

That's what I always loved about the multi-doctor specials is when you get different companions paired up, different doctors, companions.

That's the great what ifs and that was a wonderful moment to have ace with Graham.

[11:42]

I think that was one of my favourite parts.

I think the appearance of the 80s doctors would have felt would have sat better for me, had just one of the 21st century doctors also appeared in it.

I'm reminded about being a fan just before the show came back, where I sort of suddenly realised that we've got all these ageing people that we're following, and they're just getting older and older and older, and the new series brought suddenly all the, even when we did the 96 telly movie and you had Yiji.

So suddenly on stage, at a Panopticon with, I can't remember who he was with, it was Patricia Quinn.

Talking about sequels to Dragonfire.

And they just say Patricia Quinn was having a wonderful time.

And so was he.

But it's just that thing of, like, it was so wonderful to see this injection of, of youth.

[12:42]

And that's what I, I was kind of having those feelings again when I was seeing these very old actors playing these parts supported by their now very old companions.

I think if you'd have had Matt Smith appear even briefly, even Capaldi, even though he's not that young either.

It just sort of felt, it would just sort of for me, had more of a connection across the series.

This was a weird moment in time.

I just don't think you're going to get it.

Chris isn't going to do it.

Tenant for obvious reasons isn't going to turn up earlier in the episode.

Matt is, you know, as a career.

So I think we're...

No, I know they're a practical.

I know there are a 1000000 practical reasons why that was never going to happen.

But that's, I just couldn't help feeling that this is, this is the show that, from yesteryear that I wish was, you know, I'd rather remember it as it was rather than trying to recreate that.

I just took all of those scenes on face value and really enjoyed them.

Oh, no, I really enjoyed the scenes, but yeah.

But for me, you know, chibnal scripts are often not really about anything in particular.

And here there was some kind of unity because we actually had 4 companion farewells one after the other.

[13:48]

And I think they got down out of the way, not just because he would have just stood around Gormlessly for 90 minutes not achieving anything, like every other episode he's in.

No, no.

I love Dan.

He's very charming. the flux.

Well, it's just, you know, in this era, the companions aren't very proactive and don't tend to solve the problem.

They tend to just be companions and waive the doctor to press some buttons on the Tarness console and solve the problem.

But what it did do was it gave us the feeling from the off that this was going to be an episode about goodbyes.

And so we got Dan, and then to our surprise, we got Tegan saying goodbye to her doctor.

We got A saying goodbye to her doctor and then finally the one that we really cared about, which was Yaz saying goodbye to her doctor.

Yeah, I think we did.

Just in context at this point.

You know, it kind of mattered.

They've been together for 3 seasons or whatever and, you know, I'm kind of, I wasn't expecting anything about your team, which is what Peter and I..

[14:59]

That was never going to happen, and I'm glad they cleared that away last episode.

But I thought that was a good final departure.

We'll talk about, we'll talk about it more later, but I thought it was well done.

I think you're right.

I think it was good to get Dan saying goodbye early on rather than having to try and rush everything at the end.

Yeah, and he gets to come back in the end, like we see him again.

But again, he's like virtually about every other episode he's in, not really with the doctor or news very much.

What I really liked about that last scene with Yaz and the doctor on the TARDIS is it consciously mirrors their scene on the beach at the end of Legend of the Sea Devils, where Yaz is clearly heartbroken and desolated to realise the doctor doesn't have the same feeling she has, despite the fact she, you know, she cares for her and likes her and admires her very deeply.

Whereas this is them... cementing their friendship.

And it's definitely, I think, Amanda's performance, still acknowledging that depth of feeling, but also acknowledging that the doctor's feelings for Yaz are just as important as Yaz's feelings for her.

[16:10]

And the thing is, with all that buildup, and my God, Yaz carrying the doctor towards the TARDIS, inverting that vision that we've had with almost all the cases.

Yeah, right from the case of Androzani, inverting that, yeah, inverting that vision.

Right from then, I'm like, how on earth will she leave?

She won't leave.

And it's so simple that the doctor just says, I want to do this by myself.

And because they care for each other so much, Yaz respects that.

And I'm like, that's actually perfect.

I would, if her contract's up.

That's the perfect way.

I would have actually liked it to come from her as well.

Like, I would like some acknowledgement where she knows that the doctor she loves is not going to be here anymore.

And so she kind of agrees to go because as it is, it's pretty much like, yes, you're not contracted for next series.

And I don't think Russell's going to want you.

So you go away while I do this special effect scene.

Dude, like, don't you think it would have worked better if she'd had more of a Martha type leaving?

[17:11]

Yeah.

She's admitted these feelings to the doctor that doesn't share them.

She makes the active decision.

I love you, but I have to look.

But I need to get on with my life.

Yeah.

But early on, when Tegan says whatever line she says, we were once you.

There is a look from her at that and I think it's adawning on her that that she's not going to be able to stay and she and it comes to it. and and hear all these people and she will be one of them sooner rather than later.

And I think it's flagged in that particular moment.

I do think I agree with you, Brendan.

I love that shot of her picking up the doctor and going back, very few times in this era have I ever been moved and I was moved at that.

Yeah, same.

And like, I'm not a huge fan of Yaz.

She hasn't made that much of an impact on me.

And I'm not invested in your team at all.

But those final scenes where everyone else is gathered around the console and it's Yaz who runs to get the doctor and carries her back in and then she's surrounded by her extended fam as she puts it.

They did bring a lump to my throat.

[18:11]

And I think Chibnall has a history of not landing these moments, particularly well, but I think he got most of the way there.

And I think that Mandip, in particular, did heavy lifting and brought it the rest of the way.

Yes.

There's also this wonderful moment when basically every big apart from one person in that console room is a woman.

Yeah.

Looking down on her, that's quite...

Yeah, that's pretty amazing, isn't it?

Because I remember one of the criticisms when John Bishop was announced for flux, was a lot of people said we could have had the 1st all woman team TARDIS, you know, and you know, kind of like John Bishop's very talented and whatnot and what have you, but this is kind of just the same dynamic we've had before.

And I think the writing of this may have been a response to that, you know, because as you know, James, it's pretty much just very much towards the end, just Vinder and Graham, who were the men there.

Yeah, I forgot, Vinda, he had nothing to do.

[19:13]

He had a lot of exposition to deliver to that guy on the other end of the phone.

I'm doing this.

He looked depressive.

I think maybe we just go straight into the regeneration and then talk about the blaring space nonsense at the end.

I actually thought that that was a really strong sequence.

I think the visual of the 2 of them sitting on top of the TARDIS eating ice cream. is really good, isn't it?

And there's a moment where Jody kind of Jody's all surface, I think, in her performance, like she is the doctor who behaves in this sort of particular way.

But there were little moments of actual Jody coming through, I think, there.

And I was kind of thinking, why couldn't we have had more of this during the last few years because I think she's super charming.

And she's been nothing if not, you know, an incredible kind of ambassador for the show.

And I can't forget that thing she did during lockdown, from the cupboard, where she was reassuring us all that everything would be okay, where she really properly was the doctor in an extraordinary way.

[20:21]

And I thought that she got to, she did a good job here.

And she got those great lines.

I love Doctor Whoever I'm going to be tag your ears.

I think that's a really great final line.

Yeah, that was really good.

I think what sets it apart so much is it's.

It's the happiest regeneration we've had.

Um, you know, like Eccleston and Matt Smith are sort of bittersweet.

Tennant doesn't want to go.

Capaldi doesn't want to live.

That's so miserable.

Whereas, whereas Jody, like the sort of only negative reaction she has is, I've got so much more to do, and this, we're having so much fun, but if it's time, it's time, and I'm going to go look at this beautiful vista, and throw my hands out, and who, you know, whoever you are or tag you're it, you know?

And that whole thing of the blossom is blossom.

Some people might have criticised it for, that's just the daisiest daisy.

And I was one of those people, and then someone pointed out, actually, it's from a Dennis Potter play.

[21:24]

It's like one of the few times that Chip noise is actually saying, look at this piece of culture.

I think it's actually from a Buddhist Sutra, right?

But I think that's lovely and I think that absolutely she gets to do that in her final scene.

Why not?

And we were saying earlier about the dialogue.

I think that I don't think Chibnell is a great writer of dialogue, but I think there are a handful of instances in this episode where he really delivers and there's some funny lines, especially given to Sasha.

And he lands through a generation.

Like it actually, it's a really good regeneration scene.

So let's talk about Sasha and the blaring space nonsense.

What the hell was all that?

I don't quite know what the deal was.

So he was going to do a thing and there was a planet that would help him and a whole heap of things happened.

The volcanos turn to metal.

And we had to be in 1916 for some reason.

[22:25]

Well, that was the year that Rasputin died, but...

When I 1st saw the master doing that, I thought he was going to try and prevent the October Revolution, it was kind of like, go off and do something and that might have been sort of slightly interesting.

But it just doesn't go anywhere.

It's like, here are a whole lot of ideas and I smoohed them together and this is what's come out.

And then we needed that because then he would, um, unshrink, a shard and then have like the doll thing where they're all coming out.

Yeah, but like what?

And that the thing is that all of that was such sort of nonsense, like, you know, and that's how she dies.

I think that's a that's a bit of a problem because Eccleston's doctor dies to save Rose, Tenant's doctor dies to save Wilf, Matt's doctor lives a long life defending this little town from repeated alien invasions and then dies of old age and, you know, finishes off the Daleks.

[23:31]

And Capoli dies somehow, he's saving saving the people from the Cyberman.

Well, I mean, he was just hugged a bit too hard.

Yeah, that's right.

Whereas Jody, like, things are firing beams at each other or something and she just gets caught in the crossfire.

Yeah, there's sort of nothing to it.

And I just thought that that was, that was the sort of thing that would have had my mother sort of shaking her head.

You know, like I would have been enthusiastically watching it on Doctor Who, age 12 or whatever.

And she'd be going, what is this nonsense?

What are you watching?

That was my childhood.

It is actually a very strange regeneration to come up with as the only regeneration that this showrunner is going to do, that surely he's been thinking since he was six, how he would regenerate the doctor.

And I actually find this about the other modern era regenerations as well.

I've actually been surprised by most of them.

I haven't had what I would feel is what I would define as like a logopolis moment or a case avengers idea moment.

[24:34]

And I know that, you know, Davis is effectively dying throughout because of the spectrum.

But it's done in a different way.

It's not this thing of, oh, I'm about to regenerate.

So let's all go and have a have some ice cream on the top of the tire.

So let's go and meet all my companions from my era before.

It's all a bit, it all kind of takes away from that foreboding.

I can't stop this.

I'm dying and away we go.

There's already made solution there, which is she's just had her life energy stolen and then forced back into...

Yeah, but... reason and it's all going wrong. not lasting.

I'm about to regenerate.

Isn't that the reason that the master's going to die?

Yes, exactly.

What even is that?

Is it a forced regeneration if someone pushes you off a radio telescope?

You're not choosing it.

Like, what is that?

And it just operates according to the rules that the plot needs it to operate.

Well, that's that's true.

And as you were saying, Peter, like, you know, because it was reversed, then the master seems to be dying, but she's okay until he gets his little magic Zappa thing out on the planet and...

[25:37]

And also, we're not clear on top.

It's a vape.

We're not clear as to why he needs to get the doctor's refrigerated to him.

Is it because he's run out of every generation?

which is always which used to be the thing.

But then what happened to Rasputin?

Is he just lying there kind of breathing quietly while he's in the box while Sasha doctor is over here doing this thing?

I have to say, I quite liked that.

I liked the fact that the master doesn't want to destroy the doctor.

He doesn't want to rule universe.

All he's ever wanted to be is the doctor, yes.

That is good.

And that's what the episode is kind of hinting at all throughout.

And also it made me laugh because on that note, Chris Chibnall, who just pulled out nonsense science and actually managed to be camp in this episode and was very enjoyable, did his own transformation into the thing that he hates the most.

He's finally become Pip and Jane Baker.

Oh, dear.

But we know about finally.

I thought when you were talking about Sashi, we were talking about how, I was going to say, he is the best thing in this.

[26:42]

Oh, yeah.

His dialogue is great too.

Oh, yes, totally one of the best things in the entire era.

Yeah, it's not that thing.

He raids the doctor's wardrobe for the crappiest things the doctor has ever worn.

Like, he's got celery on his lapel.

It's so awesome.

And the thing is, the celery on his lapel is the Abby short replica they sold that has a pin badge on the back, which at one point you can see.

And it's like, you know what?

Jamie Mag the Stone is actually an excellent director.

I'm sure that was caught and he went, you know what?

No, that's fine because you are all artifice.

Yeah, he's cosplaying.

Dr. Dawan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love the bit where he says how he's fun.

You know, I'm fun.

A different kind of fun.

But do you remember in our SpyFall episode, we talked about the tantalising possibility that Yaz might actually end up as the companion to the master.

And here it came tantalisingly close.

Like, coming back to his campness.

Like, I do love those moments when, you know, within the TARDIS and he's like, I mean, I mean, her head.

[27:46]

I said I'm in your head, love.

Well, I love him, you know, inviting the soldiers to bunk down with him in a bunker and stuff, easy boys.

Like he's really funny.

He's properly good and properly scary, I think.

He does mad in a way that I'm afraid John Sim just didn't.

No, but also Scary mad.

Yeah, and you've got to give Chibnall kudos for that.

Chipnall writes him as fun and gives him a lot of clever lines.

Chimmel is clearly capable of that.

Yeah, and it's the thing that the master always does.

You know, will the master be more fun than the doctor and I think that that's always the kind of peril.

But, you know, like even the fact that he's not threatening them, but he's kind of saying, so you're going to feel safe with me in the building, you know, it's like not for a 2nd is he kind of stressed or anything about being locked up.

In fact, he's making it clear that they will die because they're locking him up.

He's so good. really is fantastically great.

Which is why, as you say, Chimney was capable of doing, you know, he's got the good dialogue here.

[28:49]

He can, you know, pick good actors there.

What he's lacking is an overall ability to craft something, which puts all those things together in a way which is satisfying, because that's what for me is the problem with this.

I was engaged, which is which I wasn't for about 50% of the flux episode and I haven't been for about 50% of the episodes of this era.

They're just on and I watched them and then they're over.

But like the 2nd episode of Lux, for instance, I remember us all saying, it was. on the edge of my seat.

Now, I wasn't on the edge of my seat for this, but I was engaged.

I wasn't going, 0 my god, when will this be over?

I was really enjoying it, even though I thought it was quite rubbish.

So, but what it is, there was all these set pieces, all this stuff.

But as I keep saying, it's all sort of been thrown up in the air and it's just landed where it lands and he's gotten the sticky tape and glued bits of it together and some of it doesn't quite make sense, but it doesn't matter because we're shooting from tomorrow.

Yeah.

But also it feels like he's doing... doing the big season finale, red generation story shtick for a lot of it.

[29:53]

You know, you've got a musical number.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You've got Daleks inside men interacting with each other.

For no apparent reason.

Oh, the ones where they look at each other when he's doing the Raspberry thing?

I think that's genuinely funny.

Yeah, that's nice, mate.

He's got a hologram doctor.

Yes.

Yeah.

Plenty of hologram doctors.

Yeah, I mean, I do think he missed a trick by not bringing the 13th doctor full circle and having a fall off that cliff at the end.

That would have been the woman who fell to her.

I actually expected her to come in through the roof of the train in the 1st scene.

I thought, well, this is her last episode.

Maybe she comes in through the roof of a train again, which I guess she sort of does, but it's the cyberman.

Oh my god, yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, no, she does.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But when they, but when they initially do the whole, I, I thought Jody was going to appear as a kind of fake out.

What do we think of the cybermasters?

Cyberthalias.

I thought they were cool.

Yeah, they are.

Well, I mean, they were used the way they were always going to be used, which is drop down dead and regenerate and then come back and blow people away.

[30:58]

And then you've got a shard and what, you know, he's been cloned and he's not angry with the master, really, and the Daleks are kind of the, I loved that line about the cloning.

What a throwback to dimensions in time.

Not before she cloned me there.

And what about the master's Dalek plan?

That was my line from the 90s.

He was actually in the audience.

Well, could, could Pete McTie have told him?

You're not going to laugh about it.

Who knows?

I don't know why they're not called the Cyberlords, for God's sake.

Yes, I have a lordship doing better.

But I actually thought when they started at the Simon started regenerating in that 1st scene, I thought, oh, I was hoping we were just going to forget this ever happened.

But it is used for a plot point.

They harnessed the regeneration energy to get the doctor back.

But I mean, they could have just done anything because we're just making rules up.

Oh, so do we think that the master taking all of that regeneration energy from the cybermen in order to do the force regeneration thing, do we think that's now cleansed to the history of the show of this phenomenon?

[32:03]

No, I...

We'll just never speak of it again.

Yes, exactly.

That's what I was hoping.

But like he named them cybermasters because he's...

He's the master.

Yes, it's his ego, yeah.

Yeah, he's an ecodist.

And speaking of, Simon, how I wished for an appearance by Tech Teune.

Really?

Okay.

I'm quite glad that he...

Oh, and Dr. Ruth.

Yeah, Dr. Ruth got to appear for some reason.

I'm quite glad that he ignored that.

Yeah.

And then but we did have that little girl.

And she was she that creature?

Yeah.

Yeah, she was like...

Because then I just sort of went back and thought, is it like the power of 3 episode where he's got a little girl in that being.

Oh, yeah, he does too.

Or the timeless child or whatever.

I don't know. kind of lost it there.

But this is the thing that I'm saying about crafting the ideas together because that's actually quite a nice idea, right?

Um, of, you know, it's this bizarre creature, but it's hiding itself, making it look like a child.

But because that's revealed so quickly, there's just no opportunity to have absorbed any of it.

[33:05]

And so I go, oh, okay, okay, that's a thing.

And now we move on.

And so there's absolutely no suspense or drama or anything about, say, poor Jody got to explain us, tell us all about it.

It's all the explanation.

I was just there going, oh, please stop.

Yeah.

The thing I didn't like about that hyper-powerful space creature or what have you is, okay, but so why isn't it the Ux or the solar tract or the timeless child or all the other hyper-pandimensional space creatures?

We've had this era.

Why not bring one of them?

the frog back.

Bring the frog back.

About the patting.

Now that would have been funny.

It has been back.

Or a super intelligent shade of the colour blue.

Yeah, exactly. or even Benny.

Which Benny?

Actually, Todd.

I'll tell you what, something I would have absolutely loved because when Ace and Graham attacked the volcano, suddenly there's only one Dalek there to deal with, I would have loved if Ace throws out some Nitro 9, but Graham's got a backpack and, oh my god, I'm out of Nitro.

[34:09]

It's all right.

Ive got a little mate and Graham pulls out a potato that eats the Daleks.

Yes, and the drill.

At the drill.

And Ace says, where did you get that?

Don't ask.

And you know what?

For once, that'd be fine.

I'm very happy with the don't ask or I'll explain later.

I don't mind that.

No, I don't want explanations.

We did have the master doing a sort of return, you know, tying Jody up and explaining what was going to happen to her again.

Except I enjoyed it.

Yeah, well, he was more fun.

What was his line when he said when she said, how did you escape from Gallifrey?

And what did he say?

excellent time?

Well, just learn something about it.

Excellent forward planning.

Yes exactly. that's great.

Perfect. all we did.

Yes exactly.

I will also say the master's whole thing of force regenerating the doctor actually looks like what Eric Roberts is trying to do to Paul McGann in the movie.

Yes, I thought the same thing.

Yeah, yeah.

In which case it's like, that's great.

And as we've alluded to Dr. Ruth coming in and other side men all shooting through her because she's a hologram.

[35:15]

I just love how every appearance of Joe Martin in a scene is just, I'm breaking the show now.

Thank you very much.

Like, I'm reversing a regeneration or I'm fritzing in and out of being Jody or hello, let's take it from the top.

I'm the doctor.

It's like, yes, you bring Joe Martin in to break the show.

She is really great.

And you know, Brendan, with that telemovie connection.

Having faced Eric Roberts in those swishy robes, that's the reason that Paul McGann doesn't do robes.

I actually genuinely think that Paul McGann said, yeah, no, sod it. not putting that on.

And then they just they just wrote around it.

Oh, we have this in wardrobe from night to the doctor.

So let's talk about the ending, the ending, ending, and the surprise appearance of David Tennant as the doctor.

The Grover Cleveland of...

Well, I believe he's going to be called the 14th doctor.

Oh, yes.

So he gets numbered.

[36:16]

Yeah, so he's the 10th and 14th doctor.

Thank God you chose Grover and not potentially Trump. 11th and 14th Yes, we knew that he had a problem with vanity or something.

Yes, vanity issues at the time.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there were a lot of absurd theories online in the lead up to it, that he was going to be the master or he was going to be something else.

And, like, the way that you change actors playing the doctor in this show is the doctor regenerates into another actor.

That's the whole purpose of regeneration.

And so it was clearly just going to be that.

And I laughed out loud, obviously, at his 1st line because it's a proper payoff, isn't it?

And, of course, we all knew he was going to go, what, what, what going into the closing?

And I like the 2nd what was about the regenerated clothes?

Yeah, that's only happened once before.

Oh, with trousers.

Well, twice.

Twice.

Really?

What was the other one?

Tom Baker's boots for generations, Peter Davidson socks.

Yeah, true.

[37:17]

But I mean, this is clearly there because they didn't want to have tenant running around in Jody's costume, I think.

Oh, well, that's in its...

Well, it could be about studio, surely?

No, that's not what the next episode.

Maybe.

I think they will make it a plot point, but I think that just that, you know, it's a different production team, they may not have access to the costume.

Oh, so it would have just looked stupid.

And it looked stupid, although it looked quite good on Sasha.

Yeah, but that's camp, and that was meant to be camp, and this is not meant to be camp.

Yeah, David Tenner is never knowingly camp.

I think as well that they were shot a few months apart.

Because Jody said when I shot my half of the regeneration, the other actor wasn't there to shoot their half.

And it's evident that he's not on the cliff.

The rest of it's just shot against screen screen with the Tartars.

Yeah, but they've got very good at that now.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It's funny for a moment because, I mean, for me, it's like that thing.

I mean, we know that tenant's coming back and so on like that, but I wasn't sure.

[38:18]

Are we actually really going to have the doctor regenerate back into David Tennant or is it going to be something an open-ended regeneration and we're not really going to know.

So when the camera pulls back and Jody's just regenerating.

I was wondering whether, oh, we're just going to go to the credits and it's going to be a to be continued winner.

A power boosted open-ended regeneration.

Exactly.

But anyone who has a clue about how the show works would just never do that because the whole thrill of tuning in to a doctors.

Well, part of the thrill of tuning into a doctor's final episode is seeing who replaces them and what they do.

And, you know, Russell obviously delivered in that last 20 seconds of the episode.

Probably explains why Wargames 10 rated so poorly.

I have to say that scene tenant back gave me a warm glow, much like Jodie had just had.

I was happy to see him back.

It was like welcoming back an old friend.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, I wasn't.

Oh, really?

And I just sat there going, this is like, we've been there, we've done that.

Do we really need him again?

[39:18]

That's what I felt, right?

I thought it was a jump, the shark moment perhaps, in the show.

So we're going to see what that was.

And I wasn't, you know, I haven't been a big fan of Jody and so everybody's been praising all of that stuff leading up to the regeneration.

And I quite liked it, but I just didn't have the emotional impact for me.

And, you know, she is gone and I'm okay with that.

I mean, we've got tenant for 3 episodes and it's going to be a special.

I don't think we'll get the chance to get tired of him.

Well, it's over 3 weeks as well.

Oh, is it?

3 weeks in November.

In November, so there's nothing now until November, next year.

Can you recapture the past?

Well, I think you probably can.

I mean, he was the doctor at the point where the show was at its very most popular and the show has kind of sunk into obscurity, particularly given the different televisual landscape where there's so much competition to just broadcast television that the show has to do something big that is going to bring people back.

[40:20]

David Tennant, I think, has the ability to cut through with the general public.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's Russell's instincts and I think they're the right ones.

I still, I would agree with Todd, though, that I actually think that both the decision to bring Tenant back, but also the episode we've just watched is a great big jumping the shark moment.

Now, it may pay off with Tenant, and yes, and because we already know that Shitigat was coming and he's going to be so different and so on like that.

So maybe that's going to paper over that.

But I had the same, as soon as I heard he was coming back.

Well, actually, to tell you the truth, as soon as I knew Russell was coming back as well.

I thought the show has just jumped the shark.

Um, that's, this is, this is not good.

Yeah, because it becomes something that only a couple of people can do.

If only Russell can do it successfully, how, like what's its long-term future.

But also, I also wonder whether having a previous doctor, regardless of how popular he was, regardless of how the fact that, oh, it was the peak of the popularity of the show and the modern era, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you're still effectively belittling the era or era that have preceded them by saying, we need to get this show back on track.

[41:28]

You were all rubbish.

The only way to do that is to bring back the most popular doctor.

It would be like Tom Baker coming back after Davidson or after Colin.

It would have been the same kind of thing.

Do you remember verity was going to bring back pertweed?

those rumours?

Oh, in the 90s when it was going to be after, yeah.

And then Jant was going to bring back Sarah Jane.

And Sidney Newman wanted to bring back Trouton after Colin Baker.

But also, you can't divorce the fiction from the real life.

Something needs to be done to restore the program's good graces.

And I think this might be the way to go.

I disagree with all of you.

Yeah, no, I'm with you.

I think this is a good decision And it's the sort of thing that I would expect Russell to do.

And it is just a special. like having David Tenner back for the 50th.

We have David goes back for the 60s.

Yeah, we've just had a multi-doctor story with old companions returning and the master and the Daleks and the sidemen.

So what are we going to do for the 60th?

I think this is a perfectly legit...

But I also think that that is inward looking and a bad decision.

And as you said, at the top of this episode, that the instinct that both Russell and Moffin had about being the 20th century doctors back to not bringing them back was the right one.

[42:37]

And I think watching this episode, I still think it was the right one.

As much as I enjoyed it, but I think that the show has become even more inward looking than it ever has been at its worst moments in the past.

Yes, I would have preferred Nicola Tesla's Knights of Terror part two.

That is also terrible, but differently terrible.

This is terrible for a more fundamental reason rather than that's just an episode that's a bit bad.

All right.

I think we're going to wind up.

So I do want to say one thing about the self-help group at the end.

Oh, yes.

Why couldn't they be at a pub or a restaurant?

restaurant?

Chipper is such a robot.

He turns it into an AA meeting where having been with a doctor is a giant trauma.

Yes.

Why doesn't everyone...

Graham invites them to his house?

Yes, and they all have a party and they're all laughing and joking by the time this thing about the fact that being with a doctor and the new adventure started, this, the fact that it's the most traumatising experience you'll ever have, and you'll never be the same again.

[43:38]

Correct.

You'll never be the same again, but for a whole lot of wonderful good rings.

And you go on and do wonderful things.

Even with Tegan, and even to some extent, Ace during this episode, they're presented as being somewhat broken.

We saw that and even with being Sarah back in school union, she's broken by the experience.

They've got to be.

I'm solving the world's problems because of what the doctor taught me.

I got something completely different out of that scene because Ace and Tegan come into this and they are they are doing stuff and investigating stuff themselves.

And the idea that the doctor might be getting into contact gives them trepidation, but not necessarily sadness and the group atmosphere at the end, you know, they are like, like they are laughing and joking.

Graham's like, I've had lots of adventures.

I'm going to tell you about them and everyone starts laughing and, oh my god, the doctor's a woman and Yaz doesn't even say she's gone off to regenerate.

She just says, she'll be fine because she's the doctor, you know.

And I had this really horrible thought and you are all going to hate me, I promise.

[44:43]

And I'm setting that up because you're all going to hate me because what they need isn't a new direction in life or something like that, but they need to talk to people who just understand their experiences.

And that is the power of the doctor.

The power of the doctor is the friends we've made along the way.

Oh, no, it absolutely is that.

And I think that's absolutely what it is.

But do it in a pub.

For God's sake.

Not in a circle of chairs with sticky on name tags.

No, you see, that's Graham.

Graham's done that.

I think that's how all of Chibnall's social event.

That's the form they all take.

Besides, it's so boring.

I think actually Dan did that.

All right, so let's wind it up.

So I have a few things to plug out.

Shall we leave the room?

No.

That's the dog.

The dog. why I asked you all here.

Excuse me.

I'm just going to turn chain.

Just gonna laser it and turn it into steel.

[45:45]

So our coverage of series, our coverage of series 7 of FDE finishes this Sunday, and we, so that's with our series 7 retrospective, which I'm currently editing.

And then after that, during the week of the 23rd of November, we will be releasing no less than 5 episodes of FTE, including 2 episodes on the day of the doctor, which we will release one after the other on the actual anniversary itself.

Brendan, are you walking to work with Whittaker or have you...

I don't know, folks.

I am moving house this week.

So who knows where I am?

Maybe I'll I might just do it from the terrace.

Terror in the moving van.

The back of the movie.

Yeah.

Talk from the terrace with tenant.

Brilliant.

We also have maximum power back, which is halfway between its 2 episode run of interviews with Michael E. Bryant, and Pete and Si are conducting that, and it is pretty amazing, Peter.

[46:47]

As opposed to the Peter and Simon...

Yeah, same side.

They don't they don't have time to say their full names.

Busy interviewing Michael E. Bryant.

And untitled Star Trek Project, which is, as always, a thing.

This plug is longer than the episode would just record.

Yeah, I know, you're sure you don't want us to leave the room. some of us have given.

I would also like to let listeners, longtime listeners know that in Moving House, I'm actually moving out of the 1st FTE studio.

Yes.

They will be a blue plaque though.

There will be a blue park. right. making a plaque for your new FT studios door. you.

Look, lovely on my teeth.

Yes. brush quarter.

Yes, I know, I know.

All right.

So until, well, there isn't going to be a next time.

So I won't say until next time, but we do have plans to continue this sort of nonsense with the RTD 2 era, which will start as we've just heard in November 2023.

[47:53]

Do you want to tell them the name?

No, I don't want to tell them the name.

I have the domain, so they can't domain squat, but.

There could be 5 or 6 podcasts with our name out by the time we, by the time we get going.

So the names are close to the garden secret.

But we will tell you more about that online.

So this is the 1st podcast we've ever ended.

Yeah.

So I'll be editing it now.

I'll be adding complete yes to the RSS feed and we look forward to seeing you again in 2023.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Cheers, Jodie.

Good night.

Goodbye.

Ta-ta.

Good night.

Until next time.