Eve of the Daleks

[0:00]

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Jody Inter Terror.

The only doctor who flash cast with one full-time employee and only one listener.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Peter.

And I'm Todd.

So we are here to discuss the 2022 New Year's Day special Eve of the Daleks by Christopher H.

Shibnell, and I'm going to start just by going around the panel and asking people how they felt about the episode generally.

So let's start with Brendan.

Look, I enjoyed it.

I felt it was a nice standalone episode that still, you know, felt like it was part of the ongoing narrative, but the ongoing narrative enhanced it rather than you needed to have seen what came before.

So it was a nice little standalone entertaining special.

Yep, I think that's fair enough.

What do you think, Ty?

I totally agree. 7 out of 10.

Oh, so funny, Nathan.

[01:05]

Maybe, uh, maybe 7.5 to 8, 8, 8 out of 10.

Okay.

You know, that you ever get enough exterminations of Jodie Whittaker, can you?

Don't be cruel, hashtag not my doctor.

No, actually, I really, really liked it, and I thought Ainsing B was just the best thing as Sarah, she was fantastic.

Yeah, she was quite amazing.

What about you, Peter?

I enjoyed it.

I mean, I was a little bit disappointed when I heard that it was called Eve of the Daleks, that Chipnell didn't return to his torchwood days and make it Eve Miles of the Daleks.

That would have been absolutely amazing.

But it kind of, it continued, um, it continued the little jump in quality I think that we had in flux because complexity is, I don't think, Chris Chibnall's friend, and this was quite easily defined concept and easy for the viewer to grasp while not seeming simplistic in its delivery.

[02:07]

So I enjoyed it on most counts.

Yeah, I had a lot of fun.

I watched it again today and was laughing out loud from time to time and that hasn't happened for a while, I think.

Let's talk about the complexity, the premise.

What did you think of the idea of having a time loop and having to sort of work your way out of it?

What did you think, Tom?

Well, I quite liked it.

Like, I mean, you get to rewrite the same scenes over and over again, and make them better each time or funnier or whatever.

And I quite like that idea.

I mean, obviously there were some things that were, um, didn't quite sort of work, you know, when he, when they talked about, you know, if you die in the 1st minute, you know, you're going to be dead because it's coming back a minute earlier and then in the next loop, Sarah died within the 1st minute.

So it was sort of like, really?

And at the end, you're down to how many minutes to run, how many levels can get out, you know, with cuts and that.

[03:08]

But for the most part, I thought it was, you know, entertaining and fun and and I liked the variations of them having to outwit the Daleks, you know, and the Daleks had a plan and they had to come up with a plan and a counter plan and all that.

What about you, Peter?

You've already said something about it.

Yeah, I think time loops are always fun.

And it stands to reason that if Christopher H.

Chibnell is going to reference Christopher H.

Goodmead, it would be Meglos, of course.

I also thought I also thought it was quite quite amusing that on possibly the one occasion when the doctor exits the TARDIS and is exterminated by the Daleks.

The TARDIS just happens to have created a time loop for her to conveniently get another head around the end.

But no, I mean it was very entertaining.

The only thing it was missing was Beverly Crusher knocking over a glass.

I love cause and effect.

Holy crap, it's a really, really solid episode of Star Trek.

[04:08]

I like it a great deal.

And it's real template, like, for how to do a time loop story.

And I think maybe Chris Chibnall took a few cues from it because there was pleasing variation in sort of the various loops that went on here.

And in reference to cause and effects, the way that the characters figure out they're in a time loop, and I'm specifically thinking of Sarah and Nick, you know, because they're, they haven't experienced this kind of thing before, the way they figure out they're in a time loop is because they know what's going to happen.

But they only realise they know what's going to happen as it's happening, and that's what happens in the next gen story as well.

Like with the playing cards, for instance.

Um, So I really like that Sarah and Nick are allowed their own intelligence in the time loop.

It's not just the doctor explaining what a time loop is.

Yeah.

And I think I think for the audience as well, things like Groundhog Day.

And what's that recent thing with Andy Sandberg in it that has a time loop?

But some Palm Springs, I want to say.

[05:11]

I have no idea.

Whatever it was, it was really good.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's a known quantity.

It doesn't need scaffolding with like tons of exposition.

He didn't really kind of do a very good job initially of setting that up, I have to say.

So when Sarah looks at her phone and sees that it's what, 1153 and reacts to that, we haven't had that before and we had the doctor say that the time loop was sort of 9 minutes long at the beginning, but we had to put together those 2 disparate bits of information and kind of work it out, I think maybe that could have been signalled a little bit more clearly.

But generally speaking, it was super comprehensible.

It allowed for lots of deaths and exterminations as not pointed out before.

And, you know, I just thought it was really fun. when you realise how few time loops Doctor Who has done.

[06:14]

Yeah.

I mean, I can think of neck loss.

Armageddon, in fact, Armageddon factor off the top of my head, yeah.

Yeah.

Todd, did you want to say something?

I just thought the exterminations were fun.

Like everybody at different points, getting to talk to the Daleks, and I actually really liked the Daleks, like all their different conversations and things.

I got to be witty and funny and I just like their use, really, you know?

Well, let's talk about them then.

There's been some very funny photos on Barnaby Edwards, um, uh, Twitter, of him, Nick Peg, and the other Dalek operator, like pointing to this tunnel, and it's like, we're going to go film in this bunker in our Dalek, and then taking a photo, they're all wearing the same trainers.

Like, I think one of them said to the other two, you should get these traders.

They're really good for running around in a dumb way.

They've just been really, and so go follow Barnaby Edwards on Twitter if you want to check that out.

It was Barnaby Edwards in the Dalek that said, I am not Nick.

What a shame it wasn't Nick Peg, because then you could have had Nick Briggs say about the Dalek with Nick Peg.

[07:20]

I am not Nick.

According to Barnaby Edwards.

Nick Peg did shout, I am not Nick, across the studio in order to activate the Dalek lights, but it actually turns out that that didn't matter because they weren't in shot in the final episode when that line of dialogue was added.

But all of that Daleks do not have managers, Daleks do not have friends.

Daleks are never sorry.

Like it's, it's a sort of silly gag, but it, it made me laugh a lot of the time.

It kind of...

Can I off those lines?

once you go down that path.

You can just have Dalek say endlessly silly things.

And so it's not exactly highbrow, but it is endlessly entertaining.

And I think one of the things that we've been missing from a lot of Chris Chibnall's work is a sense of fun and this broader sense of fun.

So, yeah.

Todd?

I like the way they were just shooting multiple shots and like when they were running down corridors, like, it just missed all the time, which I think is quite brilliant because that's so Doctor Who, you know?

[08:26]

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, there were people complaining on Twitter that the Daleks kept missing.

And it's kind of like, have you watched the show?

Like...

And also, you know, they still got about a total of 35 kills across the episode.

That's pretty good average.

You know, I think I think possibly even resurrection of the Daleks doesn't have that body count on screen, you know?

That's right.

They literally kill everyone except Sarah's mum.

Yeah she was good.

And it was a good use of the Daleks as well.

I know we've had them in every New Year's Day special and so it was beginning to get a little bit wearing, but the episode just wouldn't have been the same if you've had.

I don't know, the Silurians tromping about the place.

The Daleks made it fun.

Yeah, yeah, they really did.

The pterodeco.

I think also with the Daleks, sort of, before revolution of the Daleks last year, a lot of people were saying, like, you know, resolution was great, but it's been so many years since we've had a proper Daleks turn up on mass and they're shooting people from the sky and whatnot.

[09:33]

And then we got that in revolution.

And it's like, well, where do you go now?

And this, for me, is one of the more successful, if you like, low key Dalek stories.

There's only 3 of them.

Um, And they're not trying to conquer the world.

This is a mission of revenge to take out the doctor.

And I actually really like, 0 my God, the Chase Mark 2.

Exactly.

It was a more competent execution squad than those ones in the Dardus back in the days.

But even just the simplicity of that, you know, they're the Daleks and they're here to kill the doctor.

I think that's, you know, let's have that.

It's awesome.

All right, let's talk about the guest stars.

We've alluded to some of them Peter.

Both fabulous, I think.

I mean, I think the episode would have fallen down a little bit if you hadn't had 2 stars who kind of had their own charm and had a chemistry with each other and I actually haven't seen Ashling B in anything else and I haven't seen a Jani Salmon.

[10:33]

I think it's Salmon, these surnames pronounced.

I haven't seen him in anything, but they were both instantly there.

And I think it just proves that good casting will go a very long way in an episode.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's something that has happened throughout the chibnolera, I think, where there have been excellent guest stars kind of lifting the material.

What did you think?

Todd?

You've already said how much you liked her.

Look, I liked him a lot.

I'm not convinced that he's not a serial killer, despite his protest, otherwise, if there's just too many women's clothings with dates and names.

So I reckon we're going to get something in the final episode with some poor woman's gone missing in Europe and Sarah's picture will come up.

But no, he was really good and he was funny and clever and they were just a nice sort of balance to the regulars.

It would have been awesome if you'd had a, if you'd had a post-credits scene where poor old Sarah was down the pit and he was calling down.

It puts the lotion on itself or it gets the hose again.

[11:34]

I absolutely agree with you, Todd. like, I think that is, it's to me, it's one of 2 things.

It's a breakdown in communication between the sort of scripting of the director and I feel like the script might have said, you know, he has 2 or 3 things in there and the director's like, well, they've got this big storage shed, so we need to have him have at 20 girlfriends in the last 5 years.

Yeah, except the dialogue does kind of suggest that, you know, that he's a slightly weird creeper, in a way, or that at least Sarah thinks that.

Like Sarah reacts kind of to it.

And I really like that too, where Dan sort of calls her out for being a bit harsh and then Yaz calls her out. you know he's right here.

Like, there are people online who are saying, they're calling her out for pointing out his his creepy tendencies.

And the thing is, I read that scene as more.

There's a killer outside and we'll have this discussion later.

[12:37]

But yeah, I also totally get that.

He's kind of pulled out on that and she's called out on that and it's not really brought up again.

It makes me think that occasionally this era really shows that it is being written for children, so things are very much writ large.

So instead of him having 2 or 3 things, it's like, no, he's got 20 things and that's really weird.

And from an adult perspective, it's like, that's that, okay, but you can see how that's worse.

I do think there are weird problems with the premise that are not kind of deal breakers.

Um, you know, the whole business makes no sense what this one customer who has brought a monopoly board to hear, to store this New Year's Eve and has been doing that for 3 years but has somehow managed to fill.

He must have brought a wheelbarrow with him the previous to New Year's at all doesn't make any sense at all.

But there's so much charm and so much momentum that I don't care.

[13:39]

It's sort of fridge logic, isn't it?

You sort of think about it later.

What were you going to say Tom?

I loved a mum.

Yeah.

Oh yes.

Is it is it Pauline McLinn, the actress who is Mrs. Doyle from Father Ted?

Yeah, yeah.

And she's just wonderful.

She's so funny.

And clearly the, the, the sort of structure of the episode was also dictated by COVID in one sense.

So they managed to have an extra cast member without having her in the room with anyone.

And she is just fantastically funny.

And I love how much she loves Nick.

Like she adores Nick at the end.

It's so great.

I think it really proved Ashlingby's potentialist companion because what does companion in the modern era need, a great mom?

Yeah.

Todd.

I thought Jeff was great too.

Oh, wasn't he?

Do you know I didn't I didn't recognise Carl at the end and so naturally, I just thought, oh, is that Jeff, what's going on?

[14:45]

And I was slightly disappointed.

And I think it is absolutely perfect that we never meet Jeff, but that he's just a presence the entire time.

And Jeff is a funny name as well.

So there's a lot of comedy potential for people saying Jeff, I think.

You know, it just occurred to me as great as it was to see Carl, imagine if you'd had Richard Coyle walking along and saying...

But that's that's where I keep all my stuff.

So good.

Little coupling, joker.

So, uh, we've talked about everyone except the actual regulars themselves, and of course, there was a particular sort of character development that was pretty striking.

How do you think the regulars stacked up this episode, Peter?

I thought Jodie continued her improved form and the improved writing for the doctor from Flux.

So why she, while she will never be, my favourite doctor, I thought she was perfectly good in this episode.

[15:48]

Dan still doesn't have any character, but that gets by on the performance.

And I did kind of like Yaz.

I know what you're going to reference and shall we reference it now?

I am not, I am not on board with Thasmin.

I think it should be your team.

Oh, dear, just like Bender last season.

All right.

Um, uh, Brendan.

Um, yeah, I thought the 3 regulars were really well used.

Like, Dan is just John Bishop.

As far as I'm concerned, Dan is just John B, and that's not a problem as far as I'm concerned.

He is entertaining to watch.

The scene where he, he and Yaz talk about her feelings for the doctor, is actually the 1st time I've cried since this era, since Grace reappeared in It Takes You Away.

[16:50]

Well, I think I cried at points during the ghost monument.

Sorry, Brandon. before then.

Yeah, I, and you know what?

I put, I put that down to Mandate Gill's performance there, I think. really properly good.

Yeah, she is so, I, you know, I think, in 10 years time, she's going to sort of have the career trajectory of Google and Barca Raw, who, after Doctor Who has just gone from strength to strength and great leading roles, and I see that in Bandit's future, I think she has so much more talent than has been tapped indoctrinally.

Yeah.

And in a way, that's kind of what I want from modern Doctor Who actors.

I actually love seeing them go on and do more and more interesting things.

And as for Jody, um, you know, Jody's always giving speeches and always giving it 110%.

But the speech she gives to how they're going to outwit the dalek and then steps up in front of everyone as everyone's exterminated in a group.

[17:57]

They're not even standing in a line.

They standing at a Chevron.

That is one of that is going to be sort of when I think what's the iconic 13th doctor moment. going to be up there.

That's not the speech that you had to deliver about.

We learn and we improve and we make mistakes.

Which I just...

But then we come back.

Which I just loathed.

That was my low point in the episode.

And she and she had to deliver that bit of writing.

I was just wishing my cheeks together going, are you kidding me?

And that's not her fault at all.

But she was good.

I enjoyed her throughout.

Like, as Peter said, much improved.

Like continuing on that improved level.

Yeah.

I thought that was a difficult speech to do because, you know, it's gymnal dialogue, but she sold it really properly, I think, and that was excellent.

For me, Amanda, I think sold so much of her stuff really well.

[18:57]

She is very underrated and underused.

I mean, I don't know where this love for the doctor is going or really much come from.

We've obviously seen it a bit in flux.

I don't, I'm not necessarily completely on board with, with it and we'll see what happens, but they've got 2 more episodes to do whatever they're going to do.

Um, Dan, I felt, um, I was actually quite annoyed with him in about the 1st 20 minutes, standing behind the doctor and Yaz.

He was making funny faces at times that I just didn't think worked. and it had very little dialogue.

But then he had just wonderful, wonderful moments, like the confrontation with the Dalek, that scene you mentioned with Yaz, which I thought was beautiful.

When he had the, what was it, the ski and the iron, ready to attack, like defend against the garden?

There were wonderful moments.

But I did again feel that, you know, unfortunately for him, you know, there's 2 episodes to go and, you know, how much time has he actually spent with the doctor and how much have we really got to know him and that's not John Bishop's fault in any way, shape or form.

But, you know, he had his moments which were great, but I thought there were other moments where he was very much of everybody much more in the background.

[20:04]

Yeah.

It is sort of weird, isn't it?

Because he gets kind of lost in the kind of noise and confusion of flux.

He gets some great moments, you know, particularly in episode two.

Um, but he never really has a conversation with the doctor in, in all of Flanx.

And then there's this episode where he gets a kind of hero moment, but is basically in the background much of the time.

And now there's only 2 episodes to go.

It's a bit of a shame because I do think he is he's really quite charming.

And I prefer this team.

As the doctor and Dan, I prefer this team to the other.

The one we've had before with Graham and Ryan, I much prefer this team, you know?

I was going to talk a little bit about the love interest thing, which I thought was really well handled.

And there was some sort of subtext happening and all sorts of things, and the parallel between Nick and the doctor, the thing about good weirdos, and that's when it kind of hits Dan.

[21:15]

Like, like, yes, reacts to that line about good weirdos being keepers.

Like she reacts quite noticeably in a really good way and Dan sees that.

And, you know, we've been noticing it for a long time.

Remember when, um, uh, when Naja meets, uh, and asks if they're together?

Do you remember that?

Did I dream that?

that actually happened?

No, that's in her records in the UK because she asked for that.

Ryan first.

And then she asks about the doctor and the denials even stronger and her disappointment is even stronger.

So I was just assuming that she was bisexual from her mother's reaction and kind of known to be bisexual.

But a lot of the chat has been about this being Yaz coming out.

And I didn't think there was any of that in it.

[22:15]

You know, there was no kind of, I just sort of thought it was just assumed, and the big secret, which she can't even admit to herself, is that she is in love with the doctor.

And but the fact that she said she can't even admit it to herself, that line really got to me.

I don't know if it's something from my past or whatever, but I really felt affected by that.

Yeah, it's, it is hard to know where they can go from here because there are 2 episodes and then Jody's dead at the end of the next one.

So, like, what happens?

I don't know.

I think Salvix might come between them.

Speaking of which, this is a spoilerific part of our episode.

So you might want to go and listen to something else if you don't watch next time trailers.

But how do we feel about prospects for when is this next one?

Is it at Easter?

Do we know?

They're just, they're just saying spring at the moment.

Spring, okay.

So it's called Legend of the Sea Devils.

[23:17]

Is that right?

Yeah.

What do we think?

Are you excited?

That's a big finish title if ever I heard one.

Well, I have 2 observations to make.

I think it's endlessly entertaining that Chibnall plunders the 80s more than anything else, given that he went on TV to criticise it to some of the maker's faces.

And it's clear that he has taken.

The motifs for the sea devils in this coming episode from the kind of slightly samurai look of the sea devils in Warriors of the Deep.

And the other thing that I want to know is do sea devils have man dip gills.

Oh, no.

You're just full of great tons tonight, aren't you?

Look, I'm going to say this.

I'm actually quite exciting.

We better get a murka, a baby attacking murka.

That's what I like.

That would be fantastic.

You know, look, I think he's done a great job on the redesign of the Centaurans.

[24:19]

I thought the glimpse of that sea devil looked great as well.

I liked the side, the big cyberman heads that were not flying in whatever episode that was.

And I even like the skinny daleks.

So I do think there's been some good design work, whether or not we get a story that's going to be any good.

Well, we've got a co-writer, so we've got A 75, 95% chance that it will be.

Are you excited, Brendan?

I'm, I'm really excited and especially because the new mask for the sea devils, it looks so much like the original, but just, how could we do, how could we do that with modern technology and sculpting?

And the other thing it put me in mind of was the late 80s, early 90s, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles films, whose animatronics were cutting edge and still look amazing now.

And it's kind of like if they can get that, well, obviously they can get that level.

[25:19]

But if they can get that sort of realism and excitement, um, Going, I think that's going to be absolutely brilliant.

And also, in common with a lot of the other Chibnol era historicals.

This is an era and a personality.

I don't know anything about.

So I'm also excited by that as much as I'm excited by the sea devils.

And of course, Twitter's going nuts with, well, God, what's Russell T. Davey's got left to bring back Crinoids, the Candyman.

The twins from the twin dilemma.

Uh, Yep.

Mr. child.

Marx and Geralds.

All right.

Well, I think we're done.

So does anyone have any urgent closing statements?

If the sea devils don't have those little disc guns with fiery, with the flash bits from them.

[26:20]

I'm going to be deeply disappointed, but being chip no, I know that they will.

Yeah.

Well, they've got string vests and even string vests on their pendant.

So I think the chances are good.

All right.

So let's plug a few things.

Brendan, do you have anything that you want to plug?

Yep, a walk to work out with Whittaker, episode 18, is up on my YouTube channel, Brandy Bongos for this episode, Eve of the Daleks?

And the links are in the show notes.

I'm going to plug just the Flight 3 Entirety podcasting Universe, which gets bigger every day.

So flight through entirety is on hiatus between series 6 and we'll be back later this year with our coverage of series 7.

And we also have maximum power on hiatus between series A and series B, but that would be bad.

Well done, Nathan.

I know.

[27:20]

I'm folding.

And so if you want to listen to more sort of whittering about middle brow science fiction properties, there's always untitled Star Trek project, which has just released an episode on the swarm, and you will hear at the end of that episode that we are going to do our 1st episode of Star Trek Prodigy this Friday.

All right, thank you all for joining us.

And all that remains is for me to say, until next time, if you're listening, Donny, I want my Sony mini disc player back.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

Good night. 8 out of 10.

See you soon.