Once, Upon Time

[0:00]

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Jody Inter Terror, the only Doctor Who flash cast that's here to investigate the time irregularities in Sector 9, which, as I am well aware, affect each and every one of us in the inner galaxy.

I'm Nathan.

I'm James.

I'm Brendan.

And I'm Todd.

So we are here just a couple of days after the 1st broadcast of Once, Upon Time, which is written by Chris Chibnell.

And I guess my 1st question goes to you, Brendan.

What the hell is going on?

Um, Look, I think that the central conceit that this episode introduces is that someone, and I was thinking it was the Time Lords, but they never explicitly mentioned, someone has decided they need to control time and are running it through these 6 beings called Maury in order to control it, and something about that control is breaking down, and we don't know whether that's been induced or whether that is time itself reasserting itself.

[01:13]

So that seems to be the mystery.

But the flux is space-based.

So are we being set up for space versus time, which is an interesting concept?

Well, yeah.

I'm not sure it's an interesting culture, but it is actually alluded to, I think, in the thing.

I think we do talk about space versus time.

Todd, did you get what was going on?

I think so.

Kind of.

I was sort of intrigued.

And then I was also disengaged.

Like, you know, after I worked out how this story was going to be told.

I kept looking at my watch every 5 minutes saying, well, are we on to the next episode?

Are we finishing soon?

I mean, that sounds horrible.

But I kept looking at the watch saying, surely this is going to be over so I can get onto the next thrilling episode, which I actually am really looking forward to.

I mean, you know, the whole, Ending with the angels and all that, I was really like quite, oh, yes, yes, this is wonderful, but, I don't know, getting there.

[02:15]

I like, you know, don't get me wrong.

I did, I did like, various parts of this, and sometimes I was really quite engaged, and other times I was just like, okay.

Yeah, I had a very similar experience actually, Todd.

I, I was sort of there for the 1st 20 minutes and then I sort of started to, you know, the thing where you like move the mouse to make the scrubber appear so you can see how far along the episode you are.

I would be lying if I denied that I had done that more than once during this era while watching the episodes for the 1st time.

But I was a little bit bored.

But Nathan, you know, I think it is difficult.

We're in episode three.

We can't give everything away.

And we've got to reveal more information to keep people watching.

So, you know, how do you do that in an interesting way, you know?

And and not just have a big info dump, which we've encountered behind of what we had, I think.

James, you like this episode a great deal.

[03:16]

I think.

Oh, I really enjoyed this episode.

Can you hear that sarcasm in my voice?

Um, Actually, on 2nd viewing, I enjoyed it a hell of a lot more, but on the 1st viewing, I found myself doing this exactly that that thing that you've both mentioned, which is checking the time, every 10 minutes or so, I was like, how long is there left of this episode?

Um, There were some really great set pieces.

It looked beautiful.

I...

I enjoyed the performances.

Um, but it was really uneven.

I think I think that's the thing I'm struggling with.

Um, and look, this is something I've struggled with with most of Christian Mills, Doctor Who is, it's uneven.

I have moments of brilliance and then moments where you're just like, 0 God, what's going on here?

[04:18]

So, I think we can divide the episode into 3 bits.

So let's just start with the, uh, you know, Yazdan and Vinda are in their time streams reliving things.

How did you feel about that bit in particular, Brendan?

Uh, look, for the most part, I really enjoyed it.

I was a little frustrated that once again, Yaz seemed to get the lesser part of that, but I thought it was clever in that, we have seen Yaz's past, but instead we see probably a bit of her future, where she's sitting with Sonya, and my immediate thought was, that's not their flat.

That's the house from flatline where the woman goes through the floor with the hanging chair.

But then Yaz says, this isn't even my house and the doctor says this could be a memory from the future.

And I love that.

I love seeing Sonya again.

I was so worried we weren't going to see any of the khans and yeah, it would have been great to see Naja, but I love seeing Sonya again.

[05:23]

Um, and I, and I think it gave us, um, A much needed fleshing out of vindor.

Because I was, I was ready to believe that the reason he was shunted off onto that station was that, you know, he was incompetent and like and like let, let the president's cat die or something because he grew some mice too big.

But instead, he's actually a highly moralistic character.

And I enjoy that introduction, especially because, He, we don't, he doesn't speechify it.

Like he says, I'm really sorry.

I thought I was doing the right thing, but that's it.

Yeah.

You know, he don't, it's not a, it's not a big, it's not a big speech.

It's a small decision.

Um, that tells us about his character.

So generally, I thought those bits were quite successful and it was fun seeing Jodie flying about on Kirby Wires.

Hmm.

I, um, I, I was surprised he's still alive, to be honest, given how ruthless the great serpent was.

[06:28]

I was like, how is he just?

Like, exiled to a space station?

Why wasn't he, you know, knocked off in the same way that, um, the political opponents were?

Oh, how about this?

The Grand Serpent is responsible for the flux and centred in his direction.

It's got nothing to do with the doctor.

No.

It's all been no, yeah.

Todd, did you like those bits?

I have mixed sort of thoughts about them, you know, um, The Yaz stuff, I did think she was perhaps short changed, but she got to be in some of the other sequences, but I just didn't think she brought anything different from what she normally does.

That's my opinion of that.

And but, you know, tying her to the angels sort of helped the link at the end. you know, that was quite good. in the end, but as it was happening, I was going, okay.

Um, Having Jody, do a different role as the policewoman.

[07:31]

Like when she plays a real person, Jody's really good.

That was the best bit of the episode, I have to say, that was incredibly great.

I mean that in all seriousness.

I thought it was really wonderful.

Well, even when she's playing a different version of the doctor.

She thinks you better.

Like, giving her the lines that you'd give to Ruth.

Um, to like to the fugitive doctor.

Just giving her that menace and that sort of anger and that power.

I just, yeah, I find it, Difficult to reconcile.

You can write that for a bit part character.

Why can't you write that for your lead?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I, you know, we'll come back to this in 2027 or something and I think we'll probably have a clear idea, but I think that seems sort of fairly reasonable.

For me, I thought that the storylines were all just a little bit generic, you know, there was nothing sort of particularly surprising there.

I mean, they were okay.

[08:32]

You know, they were kind of good enough, but, you know, and I guess we needed that from Vinder, but, like, he, Gibble does things.

I think that other showrunners would have done very much more quickly and entertainingly, I think he tends to draw them out a bit.

And so, you know, like that sort of stuff was okay, I think.

And certainly I was still on board with the episode at that point.

I think, um, was it was it friend of the podcast?

Kevin?

Um, who, who wondered on Twitter today, like whether, If, if this, if that plot had been witched by Stephen Moffatt, whether we would actually have enjoyed it because he would have just been much more.

Skilful and witty about the whole thing?

It is despite being odd in a way that I quite liked, you know, that was an unusual way of telling the story and a bit dreamlike and all of that and that was good.

[09:36]

But it was still very linear and it was still very, very kind of, you know, we were hit over the head with a time stream thing.

There was no point at which we're allowed to be disoriented really.

So, you know, I don't know.

Um, Let's, unless anyone has anything more to say about that bit.

I do want to move on to talk about the swarm in the temple confronting the doctor.

What did we think, Brendan?

Um, I, much like James alluded to earlier, I, I think it gave Jody something really interesting to do.

And also, it shows us because, you know, a lot of people, including myself, loved the fugitive doctor from the 2nd she appeared.

But I've kind of thought about it and I thought, what is her actual character because we've only seen her for 25 minutes, you know?

And what this brings back is actually she's quite reckless.

[10:38]

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like thinking back to fugitive.

Yeah, she was pretty reckless there as well And that gives us a sort of handle for her character.

I would have liked to see her more fully, but it was great to have her there.

I think an effort was made to ensure that we knew that she was very moral as well, that even though she was a policeman, even though she worked for this shady organisation, she was a good person, in a way that was sort of alluded to in a ascension of the cyberman with what's his name, the cop, the ginger Irish cop, Brendan, that's it.

Brendan.

Brendan.

Todd.

My eyebrows, yeah.

Todd, what did you think?

I love seeing the Ruth doctor and I wanted to see more of her in that confrontation.

I mean, obviously they needed to give stuff to Jody, but I just wanted to be the roof doctor.

Every time she's on screen, I really love her.

And unfortunately, it shows up for me, what's lacking in the writing for the 13th doctor.

[11:41]

And, um, You know, Jody was fine, but I just enjoyed Ruth Moore and I wanted more of that, you know, especially once you'd worked out.

That it was that memory.

I just wanted it sort of to glitch into her, you know?

So, I don't know what to say.

Like.

I do love how it's not actually clear.

Whether they are memories.

And then it's kind of implied that they're they're actually, Well, they are actually in their time stream.

They are, their consciousness has kind of, lodged in a moment in their in their history.

Yeah, she can't remember this point where...

Yeah.

But to like, I mean, not so much for for Yaz and Dan and Vinder.

But for the 13th doctor, where that moment where Ruth looks at her and goes, who are you?

It's like, oh, she's actually, she's actually in her, in her timeline.

[12:44]

She's experiencing that live.

Yeah.

I really enjoyed that.

And look who she's got as a companion.

Yep, the 1st companion Carvanista.

It's a thing.

No wonder he wants to get rid of.

No wonder he wants to get rid of the 13th chart.

And you know what?

You know what I wonder?

Because I was thinking, who are Yaz and Vinder, really?

And I had to, I had to wonder, well, 1st of all, you know, we know we've lost 4 episodes from this series, so maybe there were characters who were going to be introduced elsewhere, but I wonder if one of them is meant to be Neil Stook, who was her companion in Fugitive.

Oh, yeah, of course.

Lee, thank you.

And, you know, with things being what they are, if you don't absolutely need an actor on set, you're not going to bring them in.

So I totally understand the production reason for that, but I think that would have been something they thought of.

Oh yes, of course, all of this is a sort of COVID thing, isn't it?

The reason that we've got our regulars playing other parts is because we don't want to bring that many actors.

[13:49]

It's someone pointed out that the Sontara last week shouting at Jody across the battlefield was some pretty effective social distancing, which had occurred to me.

So is her other companion then, her other her other backup?

The other character?

That.

Maybe.

Could be.

Could be.

Could be.

Flavia.

I Flavia.

Chugla Flavia.

I have to say.

Is she in this episode?

I have to say that this was the bit where the episode really properly lost me and we were standing around talking about time, things and space reasons and it just seemed to me like how the not we think Doctor Who is all the time, you know, that they're just sort of talking nonsense.

And that's why I quoted the French and sauna sketch at the head of the episode.

That's really what it reminded me of.

Look, let's, let's see, shallow question now.

[14:53]

I really disliked Todd.

Sorry.

I really did dislike them outside the whole temple ready to go in and do battle.

I mean, Jodie had some awful lines there to sort of explain what they were going to do.

I just, that's part of all of that going on.

But I did like the beginning.

I did like the fact that it was a very, um, Stephen Moffatt sash, sort of, I don't know, hell bed slash Clara trying to get the doctor to rescue Danny Pink moment when we went into the doctor's mind as to how to get out of things and suddenly, boom, she got them into the time stream, like the get out of jail sort of card.

And I did like that.

I don't know about the whole bell thing.

I mean, I got a bit confused between where Vindor was in the story.

Like, I thought he was in the roof doctor's timeline, but he was in his own.

And so that confused me for a bit until I worked out what was going on there.

I mean, I thought the bell thing, I mean, The Daleks look quite good.

I like that, and I did like, I did like the cyberman that she was talking to, and she seems to be, um, possibly like, um, Anakin and Padme, and they're going to have a baby, and that baby's going to be a Tamagotchi.

[16:04]

Oh, you know?

Or as you're into off the podcast.

Nathan, it could be the doctor, you know, is their baby?

I'm just in my mind when you said that.

I'm just thinking, good grief.

Someone pointed out that, um, if their timeline, if Belle and Vinda's timelines are, are contiguous.

Um, then.

Like, and he does a daily report, then they've been apart for 54 years.

Yeah, it's on a hell of a gestation period.

Yeah, how, how, how long is this pregnancy?

Um, Yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah.

She must have got pregnant when they were together, I suppose, unless he...

Speak with her... the sperm or something, like...

I thought it was quite manipulative, like to sort of throw that in, but in the end when it's, you know, it may work, will work out okay.

[17:10]

Yeah, Michael.

And then there was that woman.

Who was that old woman?

I thought that she was like the white guardian or she was Kronos, but then in the credits or on Wikipedia, they call Hermot.

Awesome.

Awesome.

Space name, her name is.

Like, what was the one last season that they had at the end who did all the experiments from the Dr. Tetayun or something?

Tech Tech, Tech, Tech, Tech, Tech, Tech.

Yep.

He had lami.

That lost me a bit there.

But I'm excited about that.

But that makes it look at...

Oh, God, that terrible line, the terrible line where it's revealed that she's pregnant, um, just did my head in.

Oh my god, like, oh, see you soon.

Me and you're as yet unborn child.

Yeah, unborn for God's sake.

Supposed to what?

The born child.

The unborn identity.

[18:10]

Yeah, it's like a real human would just say me and the baby and rub their stomach.

You know what I mean?

It doesn't, it's so crunky.

Someone, someone pointed out, yeah, Corey actually, a friend of the podcast, Corey McMahon, said that he is just not confident telling stories visually, and so he always has to hit you over the head in dialogue with what's going on.

And I said he's like a big finish writer.

You know, like it's like there's no picture. my unborn child, you know, who's in my belly that I'm currently rubbing in shot right now.

Like so much of his dialogue should be stage direction.

I think that's the problem.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, that doesn't need to be dialogue, honey.

That could just be she rubs her belly and it says, and the baby.

Like, yeah, it's, yeah.

[19:13]

And the frustrating, the, could I, the frustrating thing about that is most of his dialogue is fine.

You know, it's just, it's just at least once an episode, you get a line where it's like, no, no human.

No human speaks like that and it just, it just, it drags you out of it.

Like, I really like Bell, and throughout the whole episode, I'm like, is she a companion from the future?

Is she a pre-hearten or doctor?

And, you know, in a way, the answer, and in a way, the answer we get is quite Stephen Moffatt, because that's the kind of thing Stephen Moffatt would do is lead you up this garden path of who she is. she's the most obvious person you could expect.

Who could she possibly be looking for, but the bloke from the future?

Why are you asking?

You know, but I like it.

And I also like that their couple name is Belinda.

Ah, brilliant.

Yeah.

Okay.

Or or Val.

So is she from Earth or do lots of planets have a northern island?

[20:13]

I didn't quite work that out.

I wondered that.

Well, they probably got their own starship, you know, so...

Yeah, that'd be it.

Oh dear.

All right.

So one last thing before I go to final statements, who do we award the Sasha Dawan award for services to exposition this episode?

Has to be Bell, doesn't it?

Oh, I was going to give it to the swarm, I think.

Because he has such lovely teeth when he's delivering exposition as well.

But definitely the swarm this week explaining about the planet and time and all of that sort of stuff.

It lost me completely.

In the past, is it the same swarm as in the present, like it looks different?

a different one.

Different act.

It is a different actor.

He regenerates.

He regenerates at the beginning, which is my other favourite fan theory is that Jody looked like that with the teeth and the things.

[21:15]

I mean, the doctor looked like that with the teeth and crystals coming out of her head and all of that sort of thing. teeth and crystals.

All teeth and crystals back in the original thing.

What about the passenger?

Like, I suspected that Dan's girlfriend was in it, but I didn't expect that it would just hold so many different entities.

Why is it called the passenger?

Because the people in it are the passengers.

It should be called the vehicle.

Yeah, I was thinking the vehicle would be too obvious.

I guess flip it round.

They're the passenger.

But yeah, I think it's a wonder.

I think it's a wonderful context.

And they look proper scary too.

There's a there's a good hint at the beginning that, you know, like in Dan's flashback thing, he looks over the square and there's the passenger standing there, like when he's being with Diane.

So, like, it sort of hinted at beforehand in a way that I thought was surprising.

It's a good visual.

Thank goodness there was no dialogue for him to say, ooh, that could be, that could be.

[22:17]

Yeah, Diane could end up trapped in that, perhaps.

They should have they should have called it the end passenger.

Can we does anyone have any sort of final, final statements?

Look, I actually can't give this a rating this week.

I really just don't know where it sits because I really can't judge it until we've seen the whole thing.

I really think it's that sort of episode.

I'm really torn between, it's either going to end up being quite genius, and we're going to look back on it and go, wow, all those things were in there, or I'm going to probably go the other way and go, oh God.

They were just treading time and teasing you on.

Yeah.

Yeah, I have, I have, I have to agree, like, sort of preliminarily, I want to give it a 6 or a 7, but it is the most arc heavy episode this season, and it's just hard to know.

But one thing I do want to say that we haven't really touched on is I really like the cliffhanger resolution and it is possibly the 1st time because we haven't had that many cliffhangers in the Whittaker era anyway, but it's possibly the 1st time that the doctor has taken a proactive stance after a cliffhanger and I absolutely love how mad it is.

[23:33]

It is the old, can't go over it, can't go under it, has to go through it.

And so she chucks herself in there.

And I really actually really like the monologue at the beginning explaining what she's about to do.

Yeah.

I, I, someone again pointed out that we'd had a monologue in the beginning, you know, like the pre-credits monologue and then we have the post-credits monologue and then we have Jody monologuing in the, uh, Jody monologuing in the swirly thing and and, uh, you know, anyway.

All right.

Well, in that case, I've got some stuff to plug.

As usual, our FDE series 6 coverage continues with the girl who waited this coming Sunday.

Um, Brendan, you don't have a new walk to work with Whittaker, just TS.

Will will.

I recorded it.

I recorded it after I messaged you, walking home from the bus.

Okay, well done.

You didn't get run over?

I did not get run over.

[24:33]

But it's not uploaded yet because there's a bit where pollen flies into my throat and I start coughing my lungs up and I have to edit that out.

You could leave it in.

Do you?

You could leave.

I know Brendans were harmed in the making of this.

Well, I will I will see to it that Brendan gives me a link, um, uh, and you can find it in the show notes.

And of course, maximum...

Yeah, screw it. upload it.

Just to that bit.

Yeah, not the episode.

Just cut that bit out and post.

Maximum power continues unabated and we are up to nearly episode 10 this week.

Is that coming?

Is it 10 this week?

Episode 10 is up next.

Yeah, yeah.

Sure.

Yeah.

So that's a thing.

And untitled Star Trek project will be out with episode 3 on Friday.

It will be the 2nd of 3 podcast episodes I'm releasing this week.

I'm an idiot.

All right.

[25:34]

So until next time, remember that in Lupari Society, if you see John Bishop next to you on the couch licking his testicles, the polite thing is to pretend not to notice.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night.

See you in hell.

I am a salute and I'm going for my tea break.

Right.